Transcript: The Road to ECS - S2 E9: Martina Grom

Hello, everyone. We just had a discussion, it is 9th or 10th of episode of the, the Road to ECS, and we realized it's 9th one, right, Valdek? Correct. So the recording says it's, it's episode 9. I was convinced that we were already 10, uh, episodes in. It only shows, like we lost track. We're having so much fun- Indeed with all of you and our guests that we lost track already. Like counting to 10 is apparently hard. And especially, and especially as the time is approaching. I mean, we're sort We can't even do anything, the, yeah. This is- this should be easy for me, but it's easy and difficult at the same time because of the same reason. I, uh, our guest today is one of my dearest and closest friends in life, Martina Grom. And if you would say, "Oh, so it's really easy to present your friend," it's also very difficult because so way back we had so much experience and interesting things, uh, happening together, and sometimes you feel if I'm trying that much, so much, many good things about my friend, it sounds somehow unrealistic, but it's not. She's Martina Grom. Martina, welcome. Thank you, Adis. And, uh, I will just start this episode with a thing which happened 13, 14, 15, 50, 60, 70 years ago, with me holding a s- uh, delivering a session about SharePoint, managing SharePoint permissions, SharePoint on-prem permissions, using SharePoint server object model, Scumber in Dusseldorf, and Martina totally breaking my session, coming to the session with a birthday cake. It was my birthday. I have no idea how she knew. I have no idea how she found out. I have no idea where did she g- get this birthday cake from. She came into the session singing. Really? And this is one of the things I will be remembering pretty much until, uh, until the end of my life. It's true. Tell me, where did you get the g- get the cake from? It's all true stories. I think we brought it from Vienna back then. You see. Really? Yes. Wow. Okay. That, that, that was- It was planned, yes. It was really planned. So, um, Martina, she is You are- She knows things- And- and she makes things happen. Of course. But not only the, not only that, um, it- Martina is I was trying to count and see did I miss anyone. Um, Martina and then Holm are the only 2 people who didn't miss a single ECS from the day one to now. Um, which means a streak of 14, uh, 14, um, conferences in a row. With, of course, exception that COVID years where nobody was, uh, where, uh, where we had a pause. Martin- Martina was there every year. And to that, Martina is also a member of the, the European Collaboration Summit content team. Um, the group of very interesting 4 people, plus Mustafa, plus me, plus Ahmed, uh, giving, uh, building, cooking coffees and organizing things in the background, who actually chose, chose the program for, for the, uh, one of the 3 shows, uh, happening in Cologne in, in, in, um, in May. Martina, what is your take on ECS? How did it change from since 2012 to today? Uh, how do you see all of that? Um, and, uh, thank you actually for being with us for all those years. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me, and also thanks for the very kind words in the beginning. So maybe just to frame it how ECS and what ECS means to me, and also this is kind of related to the friendship I have with Adis. Because I think Adis and I, we became MVPs in the same year. Something like that, yeah. And it was my first time in, in Redmond, and I was the little girl, um, walking around with all those experts and people I adore since a very long time. And I was totally suffer- suffering with imposter syndrome back then. And it was, for me, it was because my award was Office 365, and it was at the time where the product was not even launched. So I had a lot of discussion with people which still relied on Exchange On-Premises and had a very, and have a very good community there. And then I had to get to know people from the SharePoint community, which was On-Premises back then as well. So it was, it was kind of a fun experience. And I went into a room at MVP Summit in Redmond knowing no one, and Adis wa- was there in the last row, and he offered me a seat. And this is what I will remember for the rest of my life. Because this was also something which showed that community can work even if you do not have the same opinion, and Adis know what I'm talking about. So for instance, I'm a big Yammer fan, and I love everything around Enterprise Social, and other people don't. I do too now. And this is- I'm emphasizing now. And this is also-This is also something you need to consider when, when talking about ECS because ECS brings a community together with very strong opinions and very deep knowledge, and everyone wants to share their knowledge and get people excited about new things you can learn there. And this is kind of exceptional, and it was exceptional all the time, even when it still was AdriaTeCS. It was like bringing people together, give them good food because it was at the Balkans, and you always get good food there, but also bring the community together and, and give them knowledge and sharing. And this is also what ECS is, is currently about. It's not a fancy over-marketed conference with a lot of big names that sponsor everything and pay their way into a marketing show. It's more like experts who try to share their knowledge and what they learned and what they like and probably also what they don't like. And I think this is important. So that's my take on ECS. We always try- We see a guy try-try-trying to find reference pictures, I guess. We can see a part of the monitor, so we're like kinda like following him like, "What is the guy digging for?" Yeah, he's looking. He's going through- There we go. Oh. We will be sharing screen there. Oh my God, that was old. Yes. And Martina knows exactly why I am sharing this photo right now and right here, and I'm stopping the sharing, uh- Yeah stop sharing right now. This was actually in At 4 Coffees in, uh, Wien. So- And I think we still have it, but this Yeah. Might be. I, he- That, that, that was At 4 Coffees in Wien many hundred years ago, um- Mm something, something like that. Um, right, but, uh, it is not only the past, it is not 0 not only how do we, uh, came together. We also need to say that, uh, even if we really always focus on knowledge, on the value of the sessions and everything, uh, which I'm coming back in my, my next question to you as a member of the content team. I need to say that, um, the support that we are getting from Microsoft is, uh, in the meantime, um, awesome. I mean, we- lot of things which are happening now with ECS would, could not and would not have been possible, uh, without, without people in Microsoft, including we have got 2 VPs, uh, delivering keynote this year and, uh, and, uh, stuff. I mean, lot of Microsoft people also being in the content teams, uh, like, uh, for, for Collab we have Vesa. For, for, for, uh, Cloud, we have Kimo. We have, uh, Lee. Yeah. For, uh, for, um, Biz Apps, uh- We have got Daniel. We have got Daniel Laskewitz. I mean, there, there are Microsoft people heavily involved in, uh, everything we are doing. Right now we've got like 44 Microsoft people coming, uh, coming to, to, uh, to Cologne to, to be there. But as Martina said, and I hope that everybody feels it because it really does hit the nerve what she said, uh, it is not about marketing. Even Microsoft people who are coming are talking stuff. I mean, uh, people will be talking to the people who actually make those products, who actually work with those products. I mean, uh, let's just talk about Marco Casalaina, for example. I mean, the, the guy who is in the front- forefront of what Microsoft is doing with AI, and if you are into it, you need to meet Marco, and Cologne is a opportunity to meet Marco. But how do we come to that program? Um, I am there all the time. Sometimes it's more turbulent, sometimes it's less turbulent. Sometimes we totally agree, sometimes we totally disagree. I think this year is one of the most calmest ones, uh, if you ask me, uh, but I will leave this to Martina. I think we've got an awesome program. I think we really got a rock and roll program here. Um, could you tell us a bit about all of the how, how we came to that? What kind of problem are you referring to? Program. Program. Program. We didn't have- I think- We never had problems. We had discussions. Debates. Yeah. We had discussions. There were problems. Yeah. But those discussions could be emotional, let's put it that way. Uh, so- And I'm not That's fine, but, mm. Yeah. So, so what, what I can t- tell about content selection, and I really like that because content selection means you, um, you think about delivering sessions in a future conference where things are changing every week. So it could be, um, the necessity to update the content anyway because there are new things coming out in the meantime and so on. And on the other side you also find need to find balance between content. And our content teams, again, as I said, there are very strong personalities within the content team with very strong opinions. And think about that if you have developers in your content team, they f- find every submission which is around development awesome, and do not like security or IT pro stuff because it's not awesome for them, and I totally get that. Then on the other side, you have those security guys on the other side that say, "Eh, all developers, they only do development." Yes. "We need more security content," and so on. And this, this is kind of the fun part. So what, what I do or what I try to do and, and hopefully I, I make an impact there, is I try to find the balance between the content and also bring in some new stuff, mainly new stuff, and also bringing in content which is interesting for all audience people, regardless if they're only developers or only IT pros or only security or only compliance per- people. Or business. Or also are using- Or business business, adoption, change management, and do not have an idea at all about- Strategy what the technical persons are thinking about. So this is kind of a fun scenario always, because you have always those kind of sessions which are must-haves, but you also need to find the sweet little spots which are probably less known, um, and people probably don't like and so on. And, and this is what, what I like to do because sometimes And, and this is my, my own history because I talked, ta- I started talking about Microsoft Graph when the when Graph wasn't even named Graph at that time. What was it? It was Office Office. Yeah. The, the- Yeah it's either this, some interesting long name, but the- Oh, and- Now, it's tip of my tongue. What was the name of the, uh, the API? Yeah. I need to find this. I'm nerd sniping, sorry. It, it was, it was like- I'm back also the audience was like, "What are they talking about? I don't know." And you do not have a lot of audience on, on those topics in the beginning if it's kind of fresh. But it's also important to do not have all the mainstream content only at those conferences. And this is also very good because at ECS you also get content which is probably not mainstream currently. Even if you have the impression that everything is currently, um, under the, the hood of AI and every- everyone talks about AI, you also find content which is probably not mainstream and pretty fresh and pretty looking forward. And this is also something which is important to have in the content. So that's something that I wanted to ask about. Like, because, like, at Microsoft Um, by the way, another thing. Before Graph, before it was Graph, it was called the Office 365 Unified API. Yes. For anybody who- I know doesn't know. Anyways, at Microsoft we often hear that we are in a bubble, like we are ahead of the market. We are so, you know, forward-leaning doing this big thing. Then the market comes like, "No, no, no, like we are not there yet," like we are here. And I think our MVPs are very forwardly leading too because, like, again, like we involve you folks into things that we build, like, while you bring a little bit of the, uh, experience from the field where the customers are. But I think like you are still very much on the edge. And then there is the market. So how do you balance it out, and how do you bring your, the perspective of attendee, what would they wanna hear about, and balancing out, uh, showing them some of, some, some of the latest things with things that they can apply to their work today at the moment they attend event? So I can only talk about me and, and what I try to do in, in talks is always bring examples.And always try to bring real-life examples. And we have So for instance, we have in real life apart the, the, all the conference speaking gigs, in real life we, we have a couple of customers and some customers are very slow and some customers are very fast in their development cycles and, and want to learn the new stuff and want to be early adopters and so on. And it's, it's kind of a, a game always because if you, if you're playing in the early adopter space, you al- also need to, to learn that you are probably falling and you're probably getting on a technology which won't make it, um, and you're probably learning an couple of things you didn't want to learn at all because they are just not working. Mm-hmm. And on the other side, if you look at it from a perspective, those early adopters are really incredible useful for all of the rest of the people, for those who are going slower and who want to learn from that technology. And even if you have an attendee who says, "Okay, we are not there yet," he probably gets an inspiration where he should think of or what are the topics he needs to think of in the future. So it's always And you always have to move forward and not roll back. And this is also something that I learned in cloud technology. You do not do roll backs. You fix the things and move on. So it's like it's more a way forward. It's not, it's not happening all the time, I totally get that, but this is more or less the way we, we need to go. S- so this comes mostly to the second, uh, part of, of, uh, you made Valda cry. Um- Yeah. It's all so emotional. We now go switch to the second part of, uh, this, uh, uh, transitioned smoothly the session. second part of, uh, of our interview with, uh, Martina today. Uh, what is Martina doing when she is not about ECS? When, uh, when she's not, uh, in the content team, when, when she's not an MVP and Microsoft Regional Director, uh, what she is. Um, I can just give a few hints. Martina is CEO of what I like to call ninja consulting company, uh, it from, uh, Wien, from Austria, from Vienna, from Austria, uh, focusing on Microsoft 365, but not only on Microsoft 365. Doing many things as much I know in Microsoft microcosmos. Uh, Martina is, was Yes, we did become sh- uh, MVPs in the same year, but I became SharePoint MVP- and she became one of the first 8 Office 365 MVPs. This is for example that not many people know, uh, Martina. Mm. Uh, she's a Regional Director and, uh, she loves to travel the world. Um, and, uh, luckily she's not in Dubai today, but that's a t- completely different topic. Martina, how looks Martina's normal day, if there is a normal day- So I- when you are not up on the stage or in a conference? Yeah. What, uh, what I do in real life. So, so from, from a history and this is also why our company relies a lot on M365 services. So I try to, or what our company is doing, we are, um, we are based in Vienna, in Austria. We call us at work. We're working in Microsoft cloud technologies and we are focusing on M365, on Azure, on AI, but also a lot on security and compliance. And half of our company is an ISV, so we do develop software and mainly sell software. So what we have done is we completely gave up all things on premises. So if you come to us as an organization and say, "Please help me install my new clients and set up my network," and so on, we are the wrong persons to do that. So we send th- those customers away or to other partners who still do that, because it's not our knowledge. We are a smaller company, um, but we try to be experts on, on what we do. So we always stick to the truth. So if a customer asks us something, we try to tell them Or let, let me reframe that. We are not that type of consultant who tells you what you wanna hear. And this is also- No, but that's, that's, that's- It's kind of a benefit, but it's also a warning. So because sometimes you don't wanna hear, um, a consultant- No, but come on, those type of consultants can be easily replaced by Copilot, because Copilot always tells you what you want to hear. Unless you tell it not to. That's a great argument. Thank you. Thank you for your feedback, yeah. Yes. The inconvenient truth. The inconvenient truth, yes. And what we, what we do is, and as I mentioned before, we, we are working a lot on, on things like Graph, for instance. We also bu- uh, built a, a product on that, which was in the early days of Graph, so we really know that- Mm a lot, all the good things and other things. And, um, what we do is we do a lot of governance and security and compliance. And what, what I like to do, and this is why I start talking and speaking at conferences, I'm kind of in the early adopter phase. So what I really like to, I wanna speak and, um, discuss about topics which are more future driven. So I like those little teams where you look at new things and learn from that. But it's not everyone's business, so I'm, I'm not an, a mainstream MVP. And this is also what For instance, what I do a lot is, because I know the service pretty well, all of it, um, and that easily gets me bored. So I always think about those things I, I do not know, and which I need to try out, and where I need to find new things. Given where we are these days, and these days feels like, you know, every day you open up the laptop and you begin your day, there's something like, you know, we're at Cook, there's this next big announcement, there's next n- new model. What, what's been taking up your, taking Like, I don't know what the expression. Like, what's been keeping you slee- sleepless at night when it comes to work last week or so? Like, what's top of mind for you now? So, so top of mind is, and this might scare a lot of people when, when I talk that. So top of mind of me is I'm thinking about the future of applications at all. Okay. I'm, I'm thinking about- And I've read a little bit about it. That makes me, you know, curious. Yeah. I'm- And what, what do you, what's your opinion on that? That's very big one. It's- Is SaaS dead? That's a big one. It's probably not- Is, is SaaS dead? Not, not good enough for a recording, to be frank. So what, what I think about is how our, our industry will change in the coming years, and what will be our future style of work. So like do we still need applications, or will it replaced by an agent which follows you the whole day and does the thing you need to do? So I think about do we still need interfaces, and what kind of interfaces do we need? Mm. But this is kind of a rabbit hole. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it's also very relevant. I can imagine if I will get the time, and I will get a, get, get the room for it, and nobody else will be there to beat me to it, I'll grab your ear at ECS. Yeah. I will definitely want to- know more, to learn more. Like, know your stance about it. Yeah. It is interesting. As some- as somebody who is developing products, as I know that Network does, we do, uh, Microsoft definitely does, it's a big question. Mm. But I'm challenging the question with another sub-question: Aren't agents only applications? Sorry, what? Are, are- Aren't a- agents also applic- also applications? This is what, what I, I said. It's, it's like what is the future of applications? Mm-hmm. What is the future of software? What is the future of software design? More or less. We should have a panel about it, and get few folks with extreme opinions on either side. Mm-hmm. That would be so much fun. That would be, that would be a great debate. 2 hours, maybe even, you know, a full track just, just, just- Mustafa, are, are we writing this down? It's actually a good one. Yeah. This, this is, this is actually a good idea. It's actually a really awesome one. Do we all volunteer for that? Okay, Mustafa, you and I should- We're vol- we're voluntold. I- Okay. I- I see Martina and Valdek on that panel. But I see Martina and Valdek on that panel. You just volunteered to, to moderate that panel? Mustafa just- I, I can do it probably fine, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You just volunteered to mo- moderate that panel, so yeah, th- th- this one is going to happen, definitely. And we need to have people who are in ISV business basically on that stage. It's important. Yep. We have an ISV and an RD, and an MVP. Martina, like you're ticking all the boxes. Yeah, she does. We'll obviously need more people than just you. But I'm not all the opinions, Valdek. Yes. But- Correct. Correct. That, that said, I think that is also interesting because-You are an ISV, but you're also an SI. So you kinda- Yes look at the problem from different lenses, which is also interesting. Like, how do you create room in your mind for this, these different views which you need to apply to different parts of the company in your work? So what, what I try to do is I, I, I really try to, to look at everything from all possible perspectives. And this is kind of challenging, because if you talk with the ISV part, they say, "Okay, this is great. It's new technology we should need to try out." And then my security side kicks in and says, "Yes." However- "But w- we need, need to make it secure and compliant," and blah, blah, blah. And then it comes to, uh, deployment or SI and, and this is probably And don't get me wrong, it's like our current thinking is around what you, what you can automate, you need to c- automate. So it's not about what we need to do, it's more like how can we standardize what we are doing. And this comes all together, yes, to- Yeah. And then in the end circle and it's like, well, just because you can doesn't mean you should, and it's the right thing to do. Because again- Yes compliance, governance. And often I think we th- see that this thing lag, because first it's like the excitement, "Oh my God, we have this new shiny thing. We should apply it to literally everything." And then- Yes it comes down to, okay, now the excitement's, you know, where do- airs down a little bit. Down. Let's look at the important things that are maybe even more important than the dime or 2 you might save on it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And this is also something you need to consider that, you see, just because it's, it's cool, is it already ready to be done? And if- Yeah it's ready, who are the persons for whom it's ready? So- Exactly. And are we willing- it's probably ready for Adi, but not ready for Mustafa, or not ready for Valdek- Yeah or not ready for Martina. Could be. Also, the content tells you a lot. Like, when you look at the conferences, what, what people are talking about, it also tells you how much that technology is ready. Because in the initial sessions, like we, we go back 2, 3 years ago with AI, it was a lot of talk about AI, but it's all, everything was POC. Now if you go to a conference, a lot of it will be how to govern this, how to secure this. Now we know this is a production-ready thing. Now we know- Mm it mature enough that we should be taking it quite seriously. And we, if we are not, we are kind of like a little bit left behind, colleague? Yeah, totally. Yes. With this, we actually already started moving to the last part of our podcast, and this is ECS 2026. It's in less 2 than 2 months, people. It's in 2 months. Getting there. So, uh, the madness has almost started. I have already started doing badge designs. This is typically side. So it's, um, it's getting very real. Um, so we expect top the numbers from the last year and, uh, to have a great time. And both of you, Valdek and Martina, who are not directly involved in day-to-day operations, but are very much involved with the, with the event in the different, uh, things. Valdek serves a, as a kind of a benchmark and trust- trusted advisor for Mustafa and me. Very of- we very often, uh, run the ideas with Valdek. Martina is, uh, on the content team, and she's shaping a lot of what people are going to see, uh, at the conference. Martina, what are your expectations? What, what are you looking forward to, um, 2 months? A panel that we've just agreed to do. Definitely. But- So what I'm looking forward is it's a new location. I'm very curious about the new location. It's a good one. That's, that's one thing. And the other thing is I'm curious about how it all comes together. I'm always curious about the feedback we get in the end because very often, um, all the feedback you get is, um, the rooms were too cold and the food doesn't work or things like that. Um, and I'm more interested in how can we improve it in the future. Because currently what we see here, and this is probably also something what Because I, I was actually thinking about myself, do we still need conferences? You can use Copilot and learn new things- Yeah, but this- on your terms and your time. And Valdek brought up a, a pretty good argument against that because if you have people who tell their experiences and so on, you need to consider AI has no experience. And it tells you what you want to hear. Unless you tell it not to. And AI comes from knowledge which is already here and not from knowledge you need to develop and things you need to experience. And I think this is a big difference how we will, um, work in the future also at those conferences. There's an awesome session, uh awesome session, awesome, uh, sentence from, um, Sam Altman, OpenAI CEO, which I have said, sent to good buddy of mine and organizer of ESPC, uh, Kevin, um, uh, before the last ESPC, which was in, uh When was the last ESPC? In December. Uh, I sent, uh, to Kevin the, the, the, um, screenshot of that tweet of Sam Altman. Uh, somebody was asking me, uh, him, uh, "If you would now do a new startup, a new thing, what would it be?" And his answer was, "It would be something around event industry." Because with all the AI and all the AI produced content around us, people will be longing for a direct contact. People will be longing for something they know is made by AI. It does not come from a random dude on some, uh, Reddit post. It comes from Sam Altman. It's a very interesting case for- Mm-hmm why I should be meeting person. Mm. And, and I, I think going back to actually what you both said, it would be actually a cool thing to have like track, a full, a full track named Fu- Future Of. And just try to have the a little bit of discussion of maybe it's all debates, maybe it's just, you know, panels, maybe it's just discussions as opposed to let me show you a PowerPoint deck of a thing, which is cool new feature you can get inspired and, uh, apply to work. But rather get a peek into somebody's mind, like, "Hey, like these are the things about which we should think. How are we going to work? How are, how are we i- i- imagining things?" And not, you know, in a sci-fi way that, you know, in by 2050 we'll have fly- flying cars. Something, you know, more grounded into the emerging tech that is already here but it's not really, uh, adopted yet. And I think that that would be, that would be interesting too to kinda hear from folks like, "Hey, like, what's keeping you up at night? What, uh, upcoming steps do you see and what opportunity but also risk they pose, and how could we collectively form an opinion on them?" We had a great discussion yesterday, just to follow, uh, follow up, uh, on, on what you just said, with a dear friend of mine and also a member of the content team, Thomas Vachten. Um, with new co- with new Claude AI, uh, Claude for, for PowerPoint, I don't know, have you tried it? It works awesome. But even without that you could just take your PowerPoint in a Claude cohort and give the topic and it would create you an, uh, awesome looking PowerPoint deck which is good enough. But is good enough good enough? Which is one, which is one of the questions that I think we will need to know how to answer in the, in the, in the months and the years to come. And it's also, uh, circles back to Valdek, uh, or what I think what Martin, what Martina said. AI is about past knowledge. What already exists there. Yeah. What already exists. What's already recorded, what's already in written, right? So it needs a source to, to, to, to- I have a really good friend, Mustafa Nogama. It's existing knowledge, yes. Yeah. Totally. I have a really good friend, he's a developer geek. One of the best developers I, I met in my life. He works with us. Uh, he is spending his time contributing something which is called C3. Who has heard of C3? It's a new experimental programming language, uh, based on- Oh, wow C standards, based on the C standards and, uh, and the stuff going on there. And that one tried, uh, to show me, uh, how OpenAI, how much OpenAI and Anthropic can answer questions about C3. Nothing. Total hallucination. Like a total hallucination from, from the first answer. To actually hear about C3 you need to go to talk people who are involved into C3 community.But that is unsurprising. It's a new thing, not pop- popular. So, like, once you understand how LLMs work and how they are- Of course thought and built, you kinda like, like, that makes sense." Yes. But then again, we are circling back to the questions why conferences, why talking to real people, and why did Simon Sinek answer what he did? Well, another one is given that, uh And then, I mean, like, that even pertains to my own work now. Mm-hmm. Like, we're now in a place where AI agents are sometimes shipped twice a day. Mm-hmm. Is a conference once a year enough? Do we need to have them smaller or not and more often? Because, like, last year, what we learned last year, like, in AI terms, and of course, not everything's AI, not the whole world, you know, cares about AI, but it's something that is, I think, here to stay, is year- Mustafa, he's doing it again no, wow. He's doing it again. Yeah. He's doing it again. No, just, like, I need to say that no. No, Waldek, no. But- No, no, no. We, we- I want I also want to 0.1, 1, one thing out. This is all true, like, from the learning perspective and the sharing experiences and everything else. In the, in the introduction when Adis was announcing Martina, he mentioned that she was one of the 2 speakers that was on every ECS from the very beginning except from that one year that we like to forget about, right? We don't talk about that year. And that- Thank you that year is also telling us a lot, right? Remember that year. Remember that year, and how sick we are, we are all out aware from being on our own and, and wanting to meet people. Because we are social creatures, and we need contact. We need to talk to each other. To circle back- And also- Sorry, yeah, go Also, think about what, what Waldek just said. So when you, when you think about the age of AI, what we are currently in there is And this, this was a very helpful framing for me in the beginning. It's like for an AI, we are all moving in slow motion. And AI can do things faster, more efficient, better than all of us. So I think we are currently in, in a stage where are 2 conferences really helpful for us? I don't know. Because I think it's very hard for us to keep up with all the technology changes, which would validate the second conference, even if Mustafa will kill me now. But on the other side, it's also something we need to, to see more, like, what happens and what can we provide this in good content because it will still be slow motion. We are still slow motion all the time. So what Waldek and Mustafa just did, Mustafa, is, uh, is to, to They have pushed us to reveal something that we actually wanted to reveal at, uh, ECS. Maybe before we- And then after before we actually do, maybe before we actually do, let me just add one caveat to it, right? Because, like, like, we can say, you know, 2 conferences or, like, we need more. What is a conference? 2 seasons. What is a conference? A conference is a gathering of pe- people, right? Mm-hmm. So maybe it's not a matter of do we need more. I think it's a fact. Maybe the thing that we need to think through is the how, not the what of the it or the if. It's the how. How we make that so that it's working, it's not dragging, it's relevant, it delivers on all the premises and expectations that people might have of it. And with that, I will pass the ball to you, Adis. We will be announcing at ECS or now, uh, something which we, um, wanted, uh, which we are going to be calling a ECS community. It will be a website, uh, which will focus on daily information, daily knowledge, bits and bobs, and micro events. We'll do it in cooperation with collab days, uh, smaller events which are everywhere, uh, around Europe and the world. Basically, uh, saying that, I mean, we see all the We all see this problem. It's not only that, uh, AI is moving too fast, we're moving too So we have call for content in September for June, for, for May. Good luck with that. Good luck with that. It i- it is extremely difficult and, uh, we solve the problem, we recognize the problem, but we cannot be doing 2 events a year. Uh, the same as we just don't have capacity. You always never forget what our position and how we We have a day job. At least not the way you're doing them, them now, right? At least not the way you're doing, um, them now. Not the way, uh, we are doing it now and not the way And the, the way we are doing it now is the only way which can work for us if we actually make the rounds meet, uh, the ends meet. Uh, so, so to, uh, to have it, uh, that way because, um, right, I mean, especially in the Coront- COVID time that year, we What a lot of people don't know, we were paying for all the financial losses which come first. We're making from our own pockets. And this is something that people don't see, for example. We do. We, we didn't see it and we didn't feel it, but that, that's, that's a, that's a totally different story. Um, but we've the, the problem is there, that Martina addressed, that you addressed. The problem is there. Um, and we will try to have a different medium, which will be accompanying to the conference, which will be running 365 days a year, and which will be cal- calculating, culminating in the, in the conference, which is going to be once a year. And that's, I think, the way we can go. It will be focused on Microsoft tech, obviously, because this is what this conference is all, uh, what the conference is all about. But we will try to create a lot of micro events, smaller events, and things which are happening, uh, in a shorter period of time, so people can actually also meet physically throughout collab days or on a online content, uh, and online meeting spaces, online meeting communities, uh, where we can meet, uh, where we, uh, where we can meet, uh, individuals with. Of course, powered by AI. What else? Crazy, right? You made me to confessing what we are working on. But they were just, wasn't They were just leading all to They were just leading to it all the time. Yeah. Like, like leading- We still, we still can cut it out, so all good. All right. No, we can't cut it out. now. We can, we can cut, cut out ev- everything around it except this part. No. Yes. The problem with Ad is he can never keep a secret. Like, whenever we are working on something new, he need to- But there is no, there is no point for this. Why, why would we not say that? I mean, obviously we are working on it. Obviously the problem is there. Obviously we all have this challenge. I mean, I have the challenge to keep up, and this is my work. So, uh, I can imagine that somebody who is more, who is spammed with, with, uh, thousand other things which, who doesn't have that as a primary field of work, has even more issues with keeping so. Yeah. Yeah, and I think, and I think it only shows, like, again, AI is here to stay, and we need to find a way to adapt, right? No, it will go away just like every other, uh, buzz, uh, technology went away. No. No. No, but On that positive, forward-looking note. Yeah. Thank you very much. This was an awesome episode. Um, Martina brought some sanity into it. Uh, thank you for that. And, um, I am looking forward, Martina, to seeing you in Sarajevo in a month, uh, right? Hello. And to seeing both of you again in May, in 2 months, in Cologne. Yes. Absolutely. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Thank you, folks. Thank you.